Curse

Shuuda · Apr 18, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

The reason this has turned into an "Ursan thread" is because this is a thread about balance in PvE and PvP, and, unless you've been in a cave on Mars for the past year, you will know that Ursan is a big issue concerning in PvE balance and PvE in general.

CagedinSanity · Apr 18, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

Now, we have only steamroll pve teams, and that is a problem. (80% of the teams are ursan users)

OH, RIGHT. Because high-end areas take up 80% of the game, right?

You can hate UB all you want but don't make exaggerated percentages of the games content. There are plenty of areas without ursan, doesn't need ursan, and people that don't have it or never heard of it. Plenty.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 18, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

That little note at the end has me depressed. My favorite thing about this game is (was) the constant skill changes. It's always fun to throw together new builds. Apparently that part of the game is dead now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Splitting the game might work, but then you end up with two separate games, compared to how PvE and PvP were linked by the storyline of GW. Would this damage new player accessibility to PvP, if they had to relearn the entire game? Maybe, I can't say for sure. Overall, either the game gets split or the crowd of players who don't play the entire game (you know who I'm referring to) get better and understand the importance of balance changes and how little they are really affected.

I'm against splitting for a couple reasons. First, random skill changes to PvE from PvP problems are fun. They keep things fresh and interesting. Second, I play both PvE and PvP. If the game modes were split, there would be no real way to play both, since they'd be two different games. I'd prefer not having to choose between two games I love.

DarkWasp · Apr 18, 2008, 04:18 PM // 16:18

PvE doesnt need balance in the same way that PvP does.

Edge of Extinction for example... get rid the freaking 90% rule! I remember when that didn't exist, it was one of the most FUN skills to use in PvE. Ofcoarse Balance is needed in PvP so they nerfed it, now it doesnt even get used, they might as well remove it or switch it to PvE only and get rid of the 90% rule.

The only balance that PvE needs, and this one hits me hard ALL THE TIME, is economy to proffesions. This makes no sense AT ALL.

Monks: They have like 1400 farming builds, but they get all the good drops in PuGs.

Rangers: Have like maybe 10 currently working farming builds and its usualy very hit'n'run based, but in PuGs "OMG THE RANGER GOT A KEY! BLASPHEMY THATS NOT SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN"

I've been in the game for over three years and i've seen this happen way too much.

Theres also long term loot-scaling, if you've had a character for over a year and play alot, forget about getting drops on him. This game remembers you entering a explorable from months ago.

(Heres where people REALLY start hating me)

Ursan Haters: Seriously wtf? No one told you you had to use it. If you think its borring and takes no skill, then kudos to you for usinging something else. However, ursan or not, finding a group won't be easy at all. By that I mean, if they removed ursan, PuG's would dissapear again.

All Ursan does is make the game easy enough for the common idiot to suceed in a group. (Yes the idiots are common). Back in the day there was about a 50% chance of getting an 8-man group that would make it to the armorer in FoW.

Now without Ursan theres like a 9% chance, maybe... (I tried 2 non ursan groups, I figured they wanted to play the game skillfully they must have skill. Nope..)

CagedinSanity · Apr 18, 2008, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

Ursan Haters: Seriously wtf? No one told you you had to use it. If you think its borring and takes no skill, then kudos to you for usinging something else. However, ursan or not, finding a group won't be easy at all. By that I mean, if they removed ursan, PuG's would dissapear again.

As an ursan-lover, I disagree. People would still have to PuG to do certain things, especially in GWEN.

Longasc · Apr 18, 2008, 04:23 PM // 16:23

We all know that there are games out there were PvP and PvE work with the same skills.

One example might be the game starting with the letter "W".
There are of course skills that work only in PvE. Taunts e.g..

We should wonder if the approach was okay at all, having many skills and then nerfing 90% to rubbish, trying to balance the remaining ones.

I hope they have better skill/class balance in GW2, less skills, but more quality. Without the need for eternal fiddling around.

Maybe they should also think again about their priorities and either make a PvP game or make a PvE game with some PvP content, I would prefer the latter. And it seems they are going that way with the world battles and so on.

But the funny thing is, big announcement:

WE CARE ABOUT PVE BALANCE

And nothing else. I wonder what will come out of this! The general idea sounds good. GW is full of generally cool ideas, but then it starts to get worse.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

That little note at the end has me depressed. My favorite thing about this game is (was) the constant skill changes. It's always fun to throw together new builds. Apparently that part of the game is dead now.

I'm against splitting for a couple reasons. First, random skill changes to PvE from PvP problems are fun. They keep things fresh and interesting. Second, I play both PvE and PvP. If the game modes were split, there would be no real way to play both, since they'd be two different games. I'd prefer not having to choose between two games I love.

i agree 100% with this statement.

i play both, and to me, its totally unfair to split the game into a steeper competitive learning progression.

imagine playing in pve with a 5e aegis, that recharges in 10 seconds, lasting for 10 seconds, casting in 1 second.. then going to ra, using the same skills in your skillbar, and seeing aegis morph into 30 energy, 4 seconds, in earshot, 50 second recharge..

its extreme, but im trying to exaggerate to serve a purpose. i simply feel that the developers have let the game get very very bogged down and fat with imbalance and poor community relations. the pvp'ers have every right to want change to the moves THEY exploit into oblivion, but the pve'ers are tired of the same stale ursan junk, or 5 or 6 "good" pve builds.

the game simply needs some new light, on some old skills, and some closure to the smash the keys, lack of creativity based pve AND pvp....

Ctb · Apr 18, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

We all know that there are games out there were PvP and PvE work with the same skills.

I played World of Failcraft for about four months once. I suffered ONE major set of changes to my class in that time, and had to look back several months before I started for the last time it had happened.

In Guild Wars, significant skill and/or profession nerfs are common enough that the regular weekly or bi-weekly changes can destroy entire skillbars after only a month or two.

The PvP world in Guild Wars is hypercompetetive, while In WoW it's much more casual. That puts an entirely different set of demands on ANET than the demands WoW's PvP places on Blizzard.

By effectively creating a fantasy version of Halo Live, ANET has taken MMORPG to a whole new level, and I don't think that they can make it work the same way other MMOs have made their PvE and PvP worlds work.

Besides, Blizzard's class balancing is terrible. Want to win? Roll a paladin, pop up your invincible bubble and wail away at basically anything on the game map with impunity (at least, that's how it was while I still played more than a year ago).

Quote:

My favorite thing about this game is (was) the constant skill changes.

As a counterbalance to your opinion, my opinion: I don't like constant skills changes.

I like to play Guild Wars, and I don't mind the challenge that was posed by new challenges requiring skillbar tweaking, but I don't want to have to constantly change my skillbar just because it was broken due to an aspect of play I don't even care to participate in. I don't have tons of obligations, but I don't want to sit in front of Guild Wars for an hour just constantly shifting skill icons around because of a PvP nerf, either. It's just frustrating to me, and, frankly, I can think of more entertaining things to do with my time.

Of course, for perspective, I preferred to play casually toward the end of my stint in the game. Other people who are more intense about their video games and don't mind spending hours a day probably have much less of a problem with the constant tweaking than I do.

Lordhelmos · Apr 18, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I played World of Failcraft for about four months once. I suffered ONE major set of changes to my class in that time, and had to look back several months before I started for the last time it had happened.

In Guild Wars, significant skill and/or profession nerfs are common enough that the regular weekly or bi-weekly changes can destroy entire skillbars after only a month or two.

The PvP world in Guild Wars is hypercompetetive, while In WoW it's much more casual. That puts an entirely different set of demands on ANET than the demands WoW's PvP places on Blizzard.

By effectively creating a fantasy version of Halo Live, ANET has taken MMORPG to a whole new level, and I don't think that they can make it work the same way other MMOs have made their PvE and PvP worlds work.

Besides, Blizzard's class balancing is terrible. Want to win? Roll a paladin, pop up your invincible bubble and wail away at basically anything on the game map with impunity (at least, that's how it was while I still played more than a year ago).

As a counterbalance to your opinion, my opinion: I don't like constant skills changes.

I like to play Guild Wars, and I don't mind the challenge that was posed by new challenges requiring skillbar tweaking, but I don't want to have to constantly change my skillbar just because it was broken due to an aspect of play I don't even care to participate in. I don't have tons of obligations, but I don't want to sit in front of Guild Wars for an hour just constantly shifting skill icons around because of a PvP nerf, either. It's just frustrating to me, and, frankly, I can think of more entertaining things to do with my time.

Of course, for perspective, I preferred to play casually toward the end of my stint in the game. Other people who are more intense about their video games and don't mind spending hours a day probably have much less of a problem with the constant tweaking than I do.

I think this is an unfair comparison because you forget that in Guildwars, you require a party to do anything. In other MMORPGs, you could pretty much wander around the world with any class you want partied or not. However, Guildwars forces you into a cooperative team in order to tackle every obstacle the game has to offer, which makes skill balancing in Guildwars more important in comparison to a game like WoW.

Classes like mesmers and assassins, who, are neglected when it comes to offering a valuable function to a group, end up stuck worse gaming experience in comparison to other classes like monks and warriors to which the game is biased to.

If this game was anything like WoW and free from the constraints of a forced party then the arguement would carry more weight, but because of the very nature of the game, constant skill balancing is required in order to ensure that each class gets a fair chance at being selected to a party.

But the worse part of it is, balancers failed at realizing how important it is that each class have an important role to the party, so the majority of players attached to neglected classes are now forced to play solo with H/H or select a secondary and play a poor man's nuker, tank, or healer because the "balance" that is needed to prevent this scenario just isn't there.

Because of this I think that players are justified at being angry at the system. Players only have so much patience and hope that the problems that plague their class and get them kicked out of parties will see the light of day, but its like Anet has official come out and said:

Nah, we give up and it's not gonna happen.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 18, 2008, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I don't have tons of obligations, but I don't want to sit in front of Guild Wars for an hour just constantly shifting skill icons around because of a PvP nerf, either. It's just frustrating to me, and, frankly, I can think of more entertaining things to do with my time.

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you would be playing a game with an enormous skill system and free respecs, but never want to use it. Creating new bars and executing them, is, to me, the very core of the game. Everything else is just fancy graphics.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you would be playing a game with an enormous skill system and free respecs, but never want to use it. Creating new bars and executing them, is, to me, the very core of the game. Everything else is just fancy graphics.

i agree... again.. since when did you and i have so much in common... lol

MetalMan · Apr 18, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Ok, to end all of the Ursan stuff:

Once Ursan goes, people will revert back to the Holy trinity. Maybe your Rit build can outdamage an ele, but who cares, eles = flaemz = winz0rz. Ursan has only let underused profs have a chance. Like or or not, its Ursan or the Holy Trinity.

R.Shayne · Apr 18, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Splitting the game might work, but then you end up with two separate games, compared to how PvE and PvP were linked by the storyline of GW. Would this damage new player accessibility to PvP, if they had to relearn the entire game? Maybe, I can't say for sure. Overall, either the game gets split or the crowd of players who don't play the entire game (you know who I'm referring to) get better and understand the importance of balance changes and how little they are really affected.

Can't split the game not enough people playing pvp only to net a profit and eventually they would have to close the PvP only servers which I feel would be a bad thing since some people enjoy playing only pvp.

Can't keep balancing a game for a vocal minority either, eventually you loose the most profitable part of your business model.

Dr Strangelove · Apr 18, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

i agree... again.. since when did you and i have so much in common... lol

GET OUT OF MY HEAD

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MetalMan

Ok, to end all of the Ursan stuff:

Once Ursan goes, people will revert back to the Holy trinity. Maybe your Rit build can outdamage an ele, but who cares, eles = flaemz = winz0rz. Ursan has only let underused profs have a chance. Like or or not, its Ursan or the Holy Trinity.

or..... they could simply rework older, unused or "bad" skills into decent/good ones, and balance the game accordingly, allowing more creativity...

also... bad players use HTrinity style play... simple as that... and we're not here to talk about them....

Ctb · Apr 18, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

I think this is an unfair comparison because you forget that in Guildwars, you require a party to do anything.

That's a very pertinent observation and only furthers my point: GW and WoW (and the various WoW-clones) just place entirely different demands regarding skill changes on their respective overseers.

Quote:

I'm somewhat puzzled as to why you would be playing a game with an enormous skill system and free respecs, but never want to use it.

It's not a black or white issue. It's not that I don't EVER want to respec within the system, and I said as much. I do enjoy the challenge posed by new areas, new monsters, etc. What I don't enjoy is having to stop whatever process I was in and respec things because the PvP world forced a change to skills. For example, I was back in GWEN with my Warrior when they finally completely broke Watch Yourself! It was a very effective skill for keeping dumb H/Hs alive in PvE, but became useless after the Paragon nerfing. That's not a challenge, that's just frustrating, and I just have no will what-so-ever to go back and respec just because of it (nor do I care to drag my idiotic H/Hs along like bloated logs behind me because they no longer are able to survive when they run into a corner and get wailed on). I could respec to keep them alive, I just don't want to because I wanted to actually get somewhere in the actual game.

In other words, once I figure out how to work through an area, I want to get to the next area and try something new, I don't want to have to screw around in the same place because of something completely unrelated to the challenges posed by the environment, MOBs, etc.

Respeccing for new challenges in the actual game, I don't mind. I just don't want to have to also respec on top of that just because a skill nerf for PvP had a serious effect on that skill's usefulness in PvE.

Magikarp · Apr 18, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

That's a very pertinent observation and only furthers my point: GW and WoW (and the various WoW-clones) just place entirely different demands regarding skill changes on their respective overseers.

It's not a black or white issue. It's not that I don't EVER want to respec within the system, and I said as much. I do enjoy the challenge posed by new areas, new monsters, etc. What I don't enjoy is having to stop whatever process I was in and respec things because the PvP world forced a change to skills. For example, I was back in GWEN with my Warrior when they finally completely broke Watch Yourself! It was a very effective skill for keeping dumb H/Hs alive in PvE, but became useless after the Paragon nerfing. That's not a challenge, that's just frustrating, and I just have no will what-so-ever to go back and respec just because of it (nor do I care to drag my idiotic H/Hs along like bloated logs behind me because they no longer are able to survive when they run into a corner and get wailed on). I could respec to keep them alive, I just don't want to because I wanted to actually get somewhere in the actual game.

Respeccing for new challenges in the actual game, I don't mind. I just don't want to have to also respec on top of that just because a skill nerf for PvP had a serious effect on that skill's usefulness in PvE.

thats the point I'm trying to make...

too many trash skills, so few good ones, due to the nature and abuse of skills in pvp, limits the pool of stuff you can really use in all forms of play, both pve and pvp...

i vote we reconstruct the old unused skills into usable, workable, meshable skills, to reignite both the pvp and pve world, for creativity and freshness sake.

Ctb · Apr 18, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

too many trash skills, so few good ones, due to the nature and abuse of skills in pvp, limits the pool of stuff you can really use in all forms of play, both pve and pvp...

Agreed, though I would argue it's just too many skills, period. Part of the problem, I think, is that the interactions between the hundreds of different skills are just so insanely complex now that there is no reasonable way to expect anybody at ANET or anywhere else to be able to nerf and buff things in a way that won't just create new abuses that replace the old ones.

I mean, it's not even really abuse in PvP. You can't fault people for using what works. It's just that this is a video game, so it's ruled by a rigid and inescapable logic, and unless you can instantly see and understand the entire tree of interactions (which, obviously, you can't), you can't make a change to one skill without having an unforeseen impact on another.

bhavv · Apr 18, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

But the funny thing is, big announcement:

WE CARE ABOUT PVE BALANCE

I only read the first and last page, so forgive me if I repeat anything.

Firstly, GW has been out for almost 3 years now. This is the first time in the entire duration of the game that Anet has said they care about PVE balance. Up untill now, they didnt care in the slightest bit how their PVP skill balances affected PVE. They just nerfed everything and anything that was overused in PVP, and players in the PVE community that were upset by this would just constantly be told to 'Adapt to it and learn to play the game nub'.

So why, all of a sudden, do Anet finally care about PVE balance?

My answer - All the ranting over Ursan we have seen and had to put up with over the last several weeks. Ursan is the FIRST PVE related issue that created such a huge debate. Some people love it, some people hete it (like Marmite o.O).

The ones that love it generally say 'We dont care about balance in PVE'. The ones that hate it say 'We care about balance in PVE'.

And now Anet also cares about balance in PVE???? Lolwut, you still havnt touched freaking Ursan and you have the balls to make that statement.

If Anet do truly care about balance in PVE now, after nearly 3 years of the game running, then it is very safe to assume that Ursan is going to get a big nerfage soon. But that nerf will happen AFTER EOTN stops selling copies. People are buying EOTN for the skills, and likely now PVE players are buying it for Ursan. Once it stops selling, expect your Ursan shit to get nerfed.

Racthoh · Apr 18, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

They cared about PvE balance with some of the Kurzick and Sunspear Skills, I don't see why this is startling news.